INTERVIEW

DB: For me, there are three key moments across the ABC’s history where things have not been going all that well and there has been a focus on understanding why that is and, from that, there have been incredible opportunities. The first that I can think of was what led to the creation of the ABC Indigenous unit decades ago because of the reporting coverage from a deficit perspective around a particular Indigenous community. That led to the way that stories were told, a whole influx of cadets who many now have gone on to be leaders across the Australian media.

“It’s like a culmination, as you say, Dan, of decades of work. But it’s the people and the storytellers and the media professionals who will come, you know, after I have left, that will continue this journey.” – Kelly Williams

The second was around the Bonner Advisory Committee to the Managing Director, [on] which Kelly and I both have roles, and have for a long time been a part of, which has really elevated Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander perspectives.

And then, of course, you might have seen in the news just last year was the release of the Dr Terry Janke Listen Loudly, Act Strongly report into systemic approaches to racism at the national broadcaster. Now that laid out a whole suite of reforms that were required to make the ABC an employer of choice and a more equitable place for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and called members of staff as well, which of course reflects on the storytelling we do to the community. It also created Kelly’s new role, which is Director, First Nations Strategy, and that whole infrastructure around a strategic approach to First Nations storytelling.

So, the way that I look at it is that when there have been real issues and challenges, from that, there has been a willingness to say, well, what went wrong and how do we learn from that and how do we grow something good from that? And from each of those, we’ve seen these huge advancements. And it is crucial that Kelly is in that role right now, after her decades-long career at the ABC. What she brings to that role and the perspective at that leadership table is one that no-one else has. And even more important than who is in the job is the job itself. And the fact that that’s there now forever.

KW: For me, it’s like a culmination, as you say, Dan, of decades of work. But it’s the people and the storytellers and the media professionals who will come, you know, after I have left, that will continue this journey. And we wouldn’t be in this place without the support of the Bonner Committee, without the support of our Managing Director, and without the support of Dr Jenke and her team and Reconciliation Australia.

JT: Dan, you spoke of the deficit perspective and the way First Nations people are often framed or by not being there, you let other things slip in. How are you actively trying to challenge that? And another thing you spoke of was all those things involved the significant loads carried by First Nations staff previously, and how do you see the weight they bear?

KW: I think it’s really important to acknowledge the people who have come before to actually get us into this position. Dan and I are just the latest iteration of decades of people who fought to have Indigenous perspectives on our national broadcaster in this country. And where we are at today is we have an Indigenous reporting team that sits in the news division, led by an Indigenous Head of Indigenous News and International News that sits on the news leadership team.

For us, it was all about moving that whole deficit narrative of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and the stories that come from our communities into the narrative around self-determination and what our communities are doing to take the lead and address these sorts of deficit messaging that comes from, you know, broadly, media across Australia, and those same narratives that go globally around Indigenous people in other public broadcasters. So it comes from a place of empowerment, of having enough representation within the ABC. We have 165 Indigenous employees, and many [are] now moving into those executive roles. And it enriches the storytelling that we have as a national broadcaster. Some of our highest rating content has been Indigenous-led content.

DB: I guess when I think about the way that the process unfolds of telling stories, that starts from the editorial meeting that I’ll have with my team just outside of here, hours before we go on air where it’s those conversations that are crucial to how people are perceived and how perspectives are built. So, when you’ve got a team where everyone can weigh in and share their views and perspectives and have a very frank and fearless honest conversation about the way we do news you end up with better outcomes on air, you end up with greater inclusion.

“If you don’t have the people that you are covering and talking about as part of the systems and structures that make the decisions, then it is much easier to rely on tropes, to defer to deficits, to treat people as others.” – Dan Bourchier

And the same is true for us as it is for any broadcaster, any organisation. If you don’t have the people that you are covering and talking about as part of the systems and structures that make the decisions, then it is much easier to rely on tropes, to defer to deficits, to treat people as others. And I think what Kelly is picking up on is the work that’s been done to build teams, to encourage leadership and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people into different roles where the decisions are being made, because it’s not just about who sits at the news desk in this room and what background they’re from. That is important.

It’s also important who is behind the scenes, the lived experience of the people that are making the decisions about what content goes on air, the lived experience of the people that are in the control room right now making the decisions about which camera shot, how things will look, because all of that goes together to tell the story and it’s when we bring all of those pieces together, that is where we see the greater inclusion, the greater story, more perspectives being brought into the fold. And I think that for us here, it’s a journey as much as it is for anyone. I think you’ve got to acknowledge where you’re at on that journey, the successes you’ve had, but also that the journey doesn’t end, there is further to go, and that we’re all part of that journey together.

JT: Kelly, we’ve been talking about news here, which is often heavy, but you’ve seen some examples of powerful comedy and language-learning examples. How important are they, as well as the hard news?

KW: Vitally important, because, as a national broadcaster, you are telling the stories of the country that you’re broadcasting to. At the Australian Broadcasting Corporation now we have Indigenous heads of content across news, across screen and across audio. And having that senior leadership in those divisions allows for those different perspectives. And so ABC Indigenous, that sits in our screen division, actuallly produced a lot of those videos for Black Comedy, which was a series that was hugely popular. And that whole sense of what’s humorous and what isn’t, it’s a universal principle and it brings people together.

And then you get into the audio division of the ABC, and there’s a lot of work in language around the words of the day. And hearing that language from the country that you are living and working on, for me would bring people closer to having an understanding of the place names around where you live. Australia has a lot of Indigenous place names that people don’t even know are Indigenous language. And so, it’s educating our population and the public around the stories of where they live. And as a public broadcaster, I don’t think there can be anything stronger than that in your offering.

JT: Kelly, you’re now in an executive role, and this follows a series of Reconciliation Action Plans. Why is it important for a big media organisation who do often see themselves as not having views or are impartial to things, why is it important for them to go through a process of reconciliation?

KW: When I look back at the journey that the ABC has undertaken, yes we have Reconciliation Australia, which is a national body that promotes having a Reconciliation Action Plan but for me, if you’re a public broadcaster, it is almost incumbent upon you to represent all of your community. And there’s a real depth of richness to the stories that come from where people live. And understanding about where you live translates into people feeling a connection to that place. But then also a connection to the broadcaster who is telling you those stories. It gives you a sense of home. It gives you a sense of belonging. And for me, that’s the greatest connection you can have.

DB: I think the role, for me, of the public broadcaster is always about holding a mirror up to our society so that we get to see ourselves, warts and all: the richness, the diversity, the incredible successes, the incredible failures and flaws. Because it’s only when we can have really frank, honest conversations about who we are right now, what’s happened in the past, all of which dictates and indicates where we’re going into the future.

I think that’s why it’s incumbent on public broadcasters to be part of the conversations that the community is having and about elevating voices and perspectives. Kelly is doing that now through a strategic lens and has been doing that for many, many years through supporting staff and building capacity and creating opportunities, all the while reaching out from the ABC into community, connecting with organisations, other community media organisations, those that are doing vital work on the ground in some of the most remote parts of the planet. Kelly has been working with them about how do we bring your perspectives into the national broadcaster? And [are] there ways the ABC can support content development, story development? How do we find those connections? So it’s not a one thread story.

JT: When do you know when you’ve made it? What are you looking for? What markers have you set yourself that you know you’re a safe environment, or that you’re making the content the community is proud of?

KW: That’s a really good question, and while Dan was highlighting the work that I do, which Dan always does, I was remembering that Reconciliation Australia also do a bi-annual workplace reconciliation barometer and not just the workplace, but they also sample the Australian population. And the interesting thing that came out of this year’s barometer was it is young people around the ages 18-35 who most support reconciliation, who most want to call out racism, who most want to engage with Indigenous and diverse cultures. And so it seems like the young people of Australia are leading this sort of push for unity. And the only way that we can unite and move forward together is through telling the stories of each other.

DB: Understanding each other. Listening to each other. It’s why the offerings that we have from remote communities are just as crucial as our reporting of international affairs, because the lenses by which we understand the world around us, the community around us, our neighbours, all impacts the way we see each other and the way we understand each other. The more we understand each other, the better off we are at being able to form relationships, develop partnerships, look to the future together.

JT: And just to cap this off, this of course is for the Global Media Forum, a conference for global media organisations. Why is it relevant to them what we’re talking about, for, example, the remote Northern Territory? Why is it important for international organisations, both in terms of reconciliation and content?

DB: Because we’re a global community, and the stories that are happening at Lajamanu, Peppimenarti, or Tennant Creek, the lands of the mighty Warumungu people where I grew up, are just as relevant to the global audience, because ultimately, we are a world of people. And the thread that connects us in this studio to you joining from wherever you are across Europe, right around the world, gathering for this very important conference, is it’s about stories. It’s about the way that we platform stories, how we tell them, who gets a chance to speak, what are the micro-decisions that are made that have an impact on the way that we see each other as a planet. So it’s about people and it’s about stories.

And there’s that great saying that when a butterfly flaps its wings in one continent, it can cause a ripple effect right around the world. We just don’t know what it can mean when we hear each other’s stories, and that’s why it’s so crucial that we all do understand each other’s stories and that we ultimately understand ourselves and each other better. I think that’s the work that we’re in and it’s why it’s so crucial now more than ever particularly as we are seeing challenges to the work that we do. An uprise, an uptick in misinformation, disinformation, very attacks on the media by people in positions of extraordinary power – it’s where we’ve got to stand more firm than ever before.

KW: Yeah, and I’m just reflecting on what Dan was saying, and Jamie, seeing your face, remembering that we met at the Public Broadcasters International Conference in Ottawa in 2024. And since then, Dan and I have gone on to have conversations at UNESCO and United Nations headquarters in New York around an Indigenous cohort. And I feel like those voices are rising around the globe. We are all interconnected as First Nations people, but more broadly as people living on Earth.

And for me, you look at the disparity of conversations and how very different – It’s like there’s two separate conversations going on. There’s the First Nations conversation of how we live and work and have a community-based approach where everyone’s opinions are considered and valued and we move forward together, to this whole other conversation around supporting one person in power and that sort of disparate view of how we move forward as the human race.

“As each national broadcaster, what are you doing to elevate First Nations voices where you are in the jurisdiction that you speak to, where you broadcast to? What is the responsibility of you, of each of us, as individual broadcasters? It’s something I think we should all be reflecting on, and I hope that you’ll take some time to do that.” – Dan Bourchier

I think somewhere in the middle there is the way we can all work together, but the only way we’re going to do that is to share the stories around how First Nations people have done that very successfully with quite advanced political systems and a concept of unity that has happened in this country for tens of thousands of years.

DB: There are two calls to action that I would have for the global broadcasters that, as you’re watching us and connecting with what we’re saying right now. One is: How can you be involved in, let’s call it an alliance for Indigenous media, about a place that helps to tell the stories and elevate and really amplify First Nations voices around the world? And the second thing: As each national broadcaster, what are you doing to elevate First Nations voices where you are in the jurisdiction that you speak to, where you broadcast to? What is the responsibility of you, of each of us, as individual broadcasters? It’s something I think we should all be reflecting on, and I hope that you’ll take some time to do that.